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I'm not saying to have your first meal 24hrs after, just that protein synthesis is increased for 24hr after. The first thing you consume after working out should be a mixture of carbohydrate/protein/fat. but what is actually rubbish is this crap about some magical 59min 37 sec "post workout anabolic window" where if you don't consume protein you are going to waste away.

the timing of your post workout nutrition is irrelevant given the same caloric intake throughout the day.

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I'm not saying to have your first meal 24hrs after, just that protein synthesis is increased for 24hr after. The first thing you consume after working out should be a mixture of carbohydrate/protein/fat. but what is actually rubbish is this crap about some magical 59min 37 sec "post workout anabolic window" where if you don't consume protein you are going to waste away.

the timing of your post workout nutrition is irrelevant given the same caloric intake throughout the day.

ah I see.

I am pretty sure the 24hr window (you've given this a time frame yourself) is also not a flat line of maximal value....i.e. protein synthesis is bound to be less the further away from the time of last exercise.

So agree that the exact timing of best intake is not exactly one hour...but given the new research by AIS on carb-loading (assume you've read it)...that the old school of thought of having to deplete for 3 days before loading up again to achieve over-compensation has been achieved with a single one hour high-intensity workout followed by carb loading. So the body is actually more of a sponge within "about" an hour or exercise soaking up as much nutrients in the first hour as can be achieved over 3 days. intredasting.

Agree about intra-workout or pre-workout BCAAs. Dean Geddes in the last few years has been pushing for Recovery Meal #1 to be the meal before the workout, knowing that the nutrients eaten are available in the blood at time of exercise and contribute to holding back on catabolism....but not helping protein synthesis though...that doesn't occur during training (surely).

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I'm not saying to have your first meal 24hrs after, just that protein synthesis is increased for 24hr after. The first thing you consume after working out should be a mixture of carbohydrate/protein/fat. but what is actually rubbish is this crap about some magical 59min 37 sec "post workout anabolic window" where if you don't consume protein you are going to waste away.

the timing of your post workout nutrition is irrelevant given the same caloric intake throughout the day.

ah I see.

I am pretty sure the 24hr window (you've given this a time frame yourself) is also not a flat line of maximal value....i.e. protein synthesis is bound to be less the further away from the time of last exercise.

So agree that the exact timing of best intake is not exactly one hour...but given the new research by AIS on carb-loading (assume you've read it)...that the old school of thought of having to deplete for 3 days before loading up again to achieve over-compensation has been achieved with a single one hour high-intensity workout followed by carb loading. So the body is actually more of a sponge within "about" an hour or exercise soaking up as much nutrients in the first hour as can be achieved over 3 days. intredasting.

Agree about intra-workout or pre-workout BCAAs. Dean Geddes in the last few years has been pushing for Recovery Meal #1 to be the meal before the workout, knowing that the nutrients eaten are available in the blood at time of exercise and contribute to holding back on catabolism....but not helping protein synthesis though...that doesn't occur during training (surely).

Yip, thing is, insulin sensitivity (the body's ability to act as a sponge) doesn't necessarily translate to protein synthesis. just because insulin sensitivity increases post workout, it doesn't mean that this translates into altered protein synthesis. The effect of insulin is more 'anti-catabolic' than it is anabolic. I haven't read the AIS report but I know that again, like protein synthesis, insulin sensitivity is increased for like 16 hours or so post workout, so again the timing of your post workout meal is somewhat irrelevant in the context of how most people structure their meal frequency throughout the day.

With regards to the time profile of protein synthesis, it is the net protein production that occurs throughout the day that determines muscular hypertrophy, that means total protein synthesis-total protein breakdown. There is a huge overlap between nutrient intake and absorption, not to mention there is also a constant pool of circulating amino acids from both normal protein breakdown that is constantly occurring and ingested amino acids from protein consumption. In order to understand what I'm getting at you have to know the methodology of how they measure protein synthesis. They use radio active Phenylalanine and muscle biopsy, therefore the measured protein synthesis is synthesis that has already occured, ie muscle tissue that has been built. There is no need to supply huge amounts of AAs to your muscle as the protein production is already occuring, as measured by the radioactive AA incorporation into your muscle tissue. I dunno if I've explained this well enough?? :oops:

In fact there is heaps of research that says immediate consumption of protein or glucose post workout inhibits any gains in muscular hypertrophy, I dunno how, but its just an observation.

Edit: Didn't see your last point but ingestion of BCAAs stimulates protein synthesis, as does tension in muscle fibers. Ingestion of BCAAs prior to training increases peak protein synthesis.

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With regards to the time profile of protein synthesis, it is the net protein production that occurs throughout the day that determines muscular hypertrophy, that means total protein synthesis-total protein breakdown.

No, wrong...it's ALL about timing.

To say timing is unimportant and that you just need a daily amount of protein is way wrong for hypertrophy.

Edit: Didn't see your last point but ingestion of BCAAs stimulates protein synthesis, as does tension in muscle fibers. Ingestion of BCAAs prior to training increases peak protein synthesis.

My point was and still is there won't be any protein synthesis during the workout, it's used to keep catabolism at bay. Your body isn't creating muscle while you're working out...is it?

If you mean after the workout, then great, that's called PWO and you are right this is when you want protein for synthesis and the BCAAs will hang around for 2-3hrs from ingestion...we agree then that PWO is important...? :shock:

After those 2-3hrs they circulate out of the body, and you need more protein...hence timing is important.

I appreciate that you're studying the subject and want to follow the latest research, but you won't find 99.99% of the successful bodybuilders who build muscle year upon year changing to your

the timing of your post workout nutrition is irrelevant given the same caloric intake throughout the day.

suggestion.

And yes I know how they determine protein synthesis :roll:

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No, wrong...it's ALL about timing.

To say timing is unimportant and that you just need a daily amount of protein is way wrong for hypertrophy.

I don't think you understood what I meant here? you will build muscle if net protein synthesis is positive, thats all I was trying to say, and you're right timing is important but as I said previously, protein production is turned on for 24 hours post workout, therefore there is no need to have protein within 1 hour post workout in the context of most peoples eating habits. The rate of protein synthesis is not enough to outweigh Amino acid availability, substrate is not the limiting factor. What is more important is the stimulatory effect of protein on protein synthesis, which is why I suggested ingestion of 10g of BCAAs pre workout. think about it, muscle is 70% water that mean at an absolute maximum, 30% is protein, the typical protein shake consists of around 30g of protein, there is no way in hell you put on 100g of muscle after each workout. Now not all of the amino acids from that drink are utilized as substrate but you get what I mean.

My point was and still is there won't be any protein synthesis during the workout, it's used to keep catabolism at bay. Your body isn't creating muscle while you're working out...is it?

If you mean after the workout, then great, that's called PWO and you are right this is when you want protein for synthesis and the BCAAs will hang around for 2-3hrs from ingestion...we agree then that PWO is important...? :shock:

After those 2-3hrs they circulate out of the body, and you need more protein...hence timing is important.

No, BCAAs augment protein synthesis induced by training. I never said it occurs during training? but that's irrelevant. They specifically stimulate protein synthesis by themselves. They aren't anti-catabolic as much as they are anabolic. You're explaining BCAAs in the context of them being a substrate for protein synthesis rather than their role as a trigger which is all good but my contention is that their role as a trigger of protein synthesis is much more important. This is also evident in most of the literature.

I appreciate that you're studying the subject and want to follow the latest research, but you won't find 99.99% of the successful bodybuilders who build muscle year upon year changing to your

suggestion.

I appreciate that most bodybuilders tout the importance of experience over science, when it suits them. But lets be honest, the training and nutrition of body builders on large amount of AAS is irrelevant to natty BBers. Their bodies are in a persistent state of anabolism. In fact, the timing of post workout nutrition is probably even less relevant for enhanced athletes given this fact. The timing of their post workout shake is not going to make any significant difference to their physique. Most pro BBers are full of it, they talk absolute crap, half of them have nutritionists and trainers who tell them what to do then spout a load of bro science to unsuspecting newbies reading flex magazine.

And yes I know how they determine protein synthesis :roll:

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So would working out in the morning be better then? If you are eating during the day with multiple meals after your workout, would that then be better than working out a night eating one or two meals then not eating for 8 hours?

Like I said it doesn't really matter because protein synthesis is increased for 24 hours and your sleep is going to have to fall into that time frame anyway.

Protein synthesis occurs whether your eating or not, the importance of protein as a substrate is not as important as its effect as a trigger of protein synthesis. So long as you are eating your required protein intake for the day, circulating pools of amino acids will be sufficient to not be a limiting factor for hypertrophy.

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Off topic when trashing bro science there's 000's more research hours in PWO and muscle hypertrophy.

Show me research of people with 100kg+ LBM then well be talking the same language. AAS does change the mix but PWO is more important as a natty. Being a natty from 84kg-102kg over 4yrs while at Uni I know.

Sorry I don't get how you think BCAAs before a workout is so important if net protein for the whole day is all you need. You seem to dismiss PWO in favor now of BCAAs pre-workout. Is there a window of time for this BCAA pre-workout...I imagine you have one.

I agree BCAAs pre-workout are good btw, but am lost as to why you think it's going to add benefit when your argument for dismissing PWO refers to your net protein per day idea. Why ingest BCAAs then if your net protein of the day has been met? Because timing....? Like PWO timing?

Let's just agree to disagree here, but I am seriously interested in any research that produces excessive muscle hypertrophy so please don't stop :) it makes me think, re-validate, and adjust which I am more than happy to do.

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Sorry I don't get how you think BCAAs before a workout is so important if net protein for the whole day is all you need. You seem to dismiss PWO in favor now of BCAAs pre-workout. Is there a window of time for this BCAA pre-workout...I imagine you have one.

From the very first post I said take BCAAs pre workout :roll: . Because the ability of BCAAs, specifically leucine, to stimulate protein synthesis, directly contributes to net protein synthesis across the day. When you take them prior to training it augments the increase in synthesis elicited from tension in your muscle fibers due to resistance. Its the first thing I said. The timing of it is important I guess because you are taking it before your workout but we are not really talking about a post workout shake. What is more important is your net nitrogen balance not when you take your protein.

I see what your getting at but for the purposes of the original question I guarantee you that if you took two groups of body builders and some consumed their shake within an hour and some consumed it after a few hours there would be no appreciable differences in their gains.

Unfortunately those who fund research are more concerned with old people and sick people. But for what its worth, a lot of these studies are conducted on professional athletes and other highly trained individuals. I actually have a friend who I did my postgrad with who is writing a review for publication on protein and this very topic. Interesting stuff, unfortunately it raises more questions than answers.

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One very basic caveat with Post workout meal that hasnt been touched on too much in this post is Carbohydrate intake and Protein intake and how they work SYNERGISTICLLY to speed the recovery proicess.

Just focusing on protein intake and the different ideas/opinions on timing is part of the picture,however Carbohydrate, Protein and Fluid levels post workout all kickstart the recovery process, especially if you are training at a high volume of loading in a hypertrophy phase.

This is also still standard practice for athletes world wide who are usually advised to address their post workout requirements as soon as practical after finishing a session. I do not know of too many Olympic Level Atheltes who are nutritionally coached to greatly delay this meal, especially ones that are using Glycogen as a fuel source for exercise (as most body building workouts do).

I think hitting your Macros and the PWO meal content/timing (as soon as practical) both have a very important place in successful recovery and progression.

The reason I consume carb/protein post workout and rehydrate is to kickstart the recovery process, restock Glycogen Stores (so my next days workout doesnt suffer)and to partly provide the raw materials for growth.

It is also convieneant for me to do this as soon as I get home from training as I am HUNGRY from training and I find that delaying this meal means (potentially) that I stress from hunger andalso as this delay leaves more chance that I could screw this up if I get side tracked with other commitments(work, family etc).

I like to look at PWO nutrition and hydration the same way as an injury, the sooner you address and injury (P.R.I.C.E.D) the faster the recovery time.

When you pull a muscle, generally you dont wait for hours on end before icing the injury(providing you wish to speed the recovery process).

One thing I dont like about oversimplifying IFYM nutrition to a one size fits all cookie cutter solution is the context of optimal performance for a chosen sport, which is what I believe Android is refering to from the research he has studied and anecdotally from his training which is that for most successfull bbuilders a PWO meal of Carb/Protein is still preferential for speeding up the recovery process rather than waiting for several hours to pass.

Under strict IFYM calorie and nutrient numbers where nutrient timing is irrelevant it wouldnt make too much of a diffenence to a mountain climber when they time their caloire intake, however try telling that to one of these guys who's burning 2,000 + Cals an hour climbing in snow/ice at altitude when their glycogen stores expire after a couple of hours. These guys are continually restocking themselves with Carbohydrate, Water, Protein and Fat as the energy demands of their sport just can be delayed without dangerously affecting their ability to safely climb. They space their meals at regular intervals to maintain performance. Just my 2 cents

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The topic went slightly skewed to PWO for synthesis but you make an excellent point Matrix thanks for thinking outside my square :-)

Don't know if others experienced this but...

I have srsly skipped going to workout becos I didn't have a PWO in my car ready because I get DOMS much worse without it. This was when I was natty or if on gear and I train Legs real hard. It's not just PWO, I have to eat the next couple of meals on time or the DOMS creep up on me more than they would otherwise.

DOMS to me are tied to recovery of some trauma you inflicted.

I can srsly induce DOMS after a workout simply be delaying my PWO, delaying a meal, or not supplementing right (L-Glutamine helps alot).

Bear in mind this is when i train to failure or worse to muscle exhaustion. Since doing PL style I can get away with less protein, less strictness.

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BCAA timing is a bit more irrelevant when bulking, the mTOR pathway from a leucine point of view should be pretty saturated if you are hitting decent numbers..

I still think it's important to be heavily saturated in Leucine and sugars during/after workout time.

The problem for me has always been the frequency between my prework meal and my post shake. It can vary from 1.5-2.5 hours so intra BCAA/Leucine + carb mix has always been my staple for catabolsim intra workout (BCAA through mTOR pathway and sucrose for insulin)

I also like to have 20g dextrose 10g BCAA on wake up just to get my body up and running. This is just personal preference though and minor detail, I like a big glass of water when I wake up so I throw in some sugar and powder too.

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How important is this? I often pre-mix my whey shakes the night before I drink them, so it's often mixed 15 hours before I drink it

Ugh. Warm stale whey. Yum!

Just put the powder only in the shaker and then add water from the drinking fountain at your gym when you leave

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DOMS to me are tied to recovery of some trauma you inflicted.

I can srsly induce DOMS after a workout simply be delaying my PWO, delaying a meal, or not supplementing right (L-Glutamine helps alot).

Bear in mind this is when i train to failure or worse to muscle exhaustion. Since doing PL style I can get away with less protein, less strictness.

Agreed. DOMS used to just about wreck me but I've noticed recently that I'm nowhere near as sore as I used to be in the days following a workout. The only change I've made is to take a shaker of water, whey and carbs to gym with me and sip it while I train, saving half to chug back as soon as I finish training.

Makes sense to me that I'm recovering a little better.

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In fact there is heaps of research that says immediate consumption of protein or glucose post workout inhibits any gains in muscular hypertrophy, I dunno how, but its just an observation.

.

Hi Riccardo... I've been reading an article by Anthony Roberts on insulin & BCAA post workout.. He states the benefits of adding liquid glucose to a liquid amino-acid meal (therefore raising insulin levels) will increase the absorption of the ingested amino-acid meal by roughly 50%....

He stated the importance of having enough amino-acids floating around in the body, otherwise the insulin will not be anabolic.

He further states an inhibition of protein breakdown is created, and high enough concentrations of insulin have resulted in markedly stimulated muscle protein synthesis...

As the article is pre-2005 are you suggesting new research contradicts this..?

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Hey Daz

I don't see how the two concepts are mutually exclusive but like I mentioned, insulin isn't as anabolic as it is anti-catabolic. Remember we are talking physiological concentrations here, not supra-physiological doses that enhanced bodybuilders use. Sure you need to have sufficient BCAAs floating around in your system, but so long as you are in a positive nitrogen balance, you should do. But yeah some recent research suggest taking a PWO shake directly after training actually hinders protein synthesis, I was only pointing this out to show that having a shake directly post workout might be counterproductive.

It is important to note that most of these claims about nutrition timing and other bodybuilding myths point to changes in various hormone levels within the body during certain times eg insulin spike with pwo carbs, increased cortisol after training for 1hr. However numerous studies have shown that acute fluctuations in anabolic and catabolic hormones have no effect on body composition. Muscular hypertrophy is most likely a result of the changes in local factors like IGF-1 and metabolites of muscular contraction and breakdown products (however this is a whole other debate).

A very good and recent article shows that protein consumption pre/post workout has no effect on gains in muscular hypertrophy or body composition. The article is by a guy JR Hoffman who is a top dog in this field.

Results indicate that the time of protein supplement ingestion in resistance-trained

athletes during a 10-week training program does not provide any added benefit to strength,

power or body compositional changes

A few important points:

- This study was one of the first of its kind in that they used experienced athletes.

- They did an ACTUAL program, squats, bench deadlift etc. not just some leg extensions.

- Protein consumption of 1.6g/kg each day was enough to elicit a positive nitrogen balance (no you don't need to consume 500g of protein everyday to gain mass).

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so let me get this straight, it doesnt matter what time of the day you have your protein, except for BCAA's for for triggering increased protein synthesis.

Can I have my 150gm of protein in one meal? in theory wouldnt my liver kidneys etc not allow the aminos into my blood stream with such large quantity in one meal.

If protein timing doesnt matter, does this mean that the type of protein doesnt matter ie whey casein? or only beneficial because of the different amino make up?

Would you recommend adding any additional specific aminos to ones protein intake during the day?

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so let me get this straight, it doesnt matter what time of the day you have your protein, except for BCAA's for for triggering increased protein synthesis.

Can I have my 150gm of protein in one meal? in theory wouldnt my liver kidneys etc not allow the aminos into my blood stream with such large quantity in one meal.

If protein timing doesnt matter, does this mean that the type of protein doesnt matter ie whey casein? or only beneficial because of the different amino make up?

This would be a worthwhile read; http://www.leangains.com/2010/10/top-te ... unked.html

For example, today after training I had a shake with 60-70g of protein, and then an hour or so later had 450g beef + 1L of milk. So Approx 200g of protein within 2-3 hours (other carbs and fats included of course). Seems to be working just fine for me :wink:

Would you recommend adding any additional specific aminos to ones protein intake during the day?

If you really wanted to, Leucine has shown to illicit the greatest response for protein synthesis.

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